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Abridging/Editor Labor Cost Discussion
01-14-2013, 10:06 AM
Post: #1
Abridging/Editor Labor Cost Discussion
1) Even if you'd be asking something very straightforward, such as, just lipflaps, no special effects, it would take me at least four days worth of editing to properly edit a 8-9 minute video. That's eight hours a day over four days totaling 32 hours, which at minimum wage, $7.25 where I live, would be $232. That's probably as cheap as you'll find around here, because most of the others here spend more time editing and live in an area where the minimum wage doesn't suck.

2) If I were to accept, that would eat into my own free time that I use for my stuff, and there's no way that you're going to make anything of quality once a month every month. Just putting together the script takes a lot of time if it's worth anything and having decent voice actors means that you'll have to wait for lines. On top of that, there's nothing stopping you from disappearing after the episode is done. 90% of people who say they want to make an abridged series never make episode one. 90% of those people never make it past episode three. For me to invest my time in this long term would just be foolish.

3) As a rookie, you're going to make the common mistake of scripting for more than you can support with footage. As someone not involved with the scripting process I wouldn't be able to tell you if something is possible or not and I might get stuck with the impossible while editing.

So, I really wouldn't take this job or advise anyone to take this job except under some very strict conditions. There's way too much that could go wrong. For what it's worth, by outsourcing your editing you're probably never going to get a finished product that fits what your vision was anyway, so it's often better just to do it yourself.

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01-14-2013, 01:20 PM (This post was last modified: 01-14-2013 02:53 PM by 1KidsEntertainment.)
Post: #2
RE: ABRIDGED SERIES EDITOR NEEDED
Just noting that Truth made some very valid points, but there's one thing I'm going to disagree on:
(01-14-2013 10:06 AM)Truthordeal Wrote:  1) Even if you'd be asking something very straightforward, such as, just lipflaps, no special effects, it would take me at least four days worth of editing to properly edit a 8-9 minute video. That's eight hours a day over four days totaling 32 hours, which at minimum wage, $7.25 where I live, would be $232. That's probably as cheap as you'll find around here, because most of the others here spend more time editing and live in an area where the minimum wage doesn't suck.

This is not a legitimate job. There will probably be no taxes paid. There will probably be no public record of it, as far as the government is concerned. Therefore, he *can* pay lower than minimum wage.

And even if it were a legitimate, on-the-books job, if it's a commission, there is no minimum. I've seen great artists (who were desperate for money) offer their talents for a dollar. By your calculation, if they took more than approximately 10 minutes to finish their sketch, they wasted their time.

As the buyer in this process, Cammoyses can set the price with the seller (editor) to whatever they can agree on. They can even write up a contract.

Chances are, if you're reading this, it's after reading a ridiculously long post by me, something harshly phrased or confrontational, and/or me being stupid. I want to apologize for my above post, and end this signature with a quote of wisdom to soothe your soul.

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01-14-2013, 05:27 PM
Post: #3
RE: ABRIDGED SERIES EDITOR NEEDED
It's a legitimate job brah. You're getting paid for a service. In the US, you'd still pay taxes the same way you'd pay taxes any other under the table job (i.e. freelance, babysitting, tips, housekeeping, construction, etc.) It's just up to you to make sure it's on your tax form when you file and to keep records in case of an audit. Lot's of under the table stuff slips through the cracks, but it doesn't make the job non-legitimate.

Given that editing is skilled labor only a small subset of people are able to do, during non-standard hours, and with a fast turnaround, minimum wadge is DIRT cheap and WELL under market rate.

Another thing to think about is that directing and editing have a twisted symbiotic relationship in abridging. You'd either loose a great deal of that or have to have some extensive communication going on by handing over editing to a third party.

People who undersell their skills (for whatever reasons) are another story. If someone really enjoys editing and has the extra bandwidth from other projects or is in need of some quick cash you might get a bite! Good luck.

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01-14-2013, 06:24 PM
Post: #4
RE: ABRIDGED SERIES EDITOR NEEDED
As a commission job, he can set the rate to 2 cents if he wants. It's called the free market. The more he offers, the more people will be interested, and likely, the better their performance will be. There is no minimum wage for commissions.

And I think we can nitpick all day about the definition of a "legitimate" job, but you understand my point. It likely wouldn't be claimed on anyone's taxes. It'd probably be under-the-table. In the eyes of the law, it's nothing more than a friend giving some money to a friend as a gift. And the friend returning with a service. The government doesn't tax my friends if they want to give me twenty bucks to drive them somewhere. Nor is it something I'd call a "legitimate" job.

Chances are, if you're reading this, it's after reading a ridiculously long post by me, something harshly phrased or confrontational, and/or me being stupid. I want to apologize for my above post, and end this signature with a quote of wisdom to soothe your soul.

"Ho ho..hoho hoho..santa for the wondering thismust be a joke in your series!!!!!!!!!!!!!!1"
~A scholar beyond his time

[10:10:35 PM] Airrest (Eric): YOU WERE RIGHT ALL ALONG
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01-14-2013, 06:45 PM
Post: #5
RE: ABRIDGED SERIES EDITOR NEEDED
Whether it's legal or not wasn't my point. It's not enough money for me to want to put in that much effort and time, even though I want and really need the money. Even though my lipflaps aren't top-notch, the other skills I can bring (pacing, timing, mixing, making a scene look animated with custom lipflaps) are all skills I've developed over years of practicing and I'm not gonna sell those for less than a quarter of minimum wage unless there's some really big incentive behind it.

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01-14-2013, 06:51 PM
Post: #6
RE: ABRIDGED SERIES EDITOR NEEDED
Oh sure, like I said in my post, I agreed with most of what you said, but I wanted to point out that "minimum wage" really doesn't have anything to do with it, since it's commission. He can charge whatever he wants, and whether that comes to $7.25 per hour or not is up to himself and the person who takes his offer.

Chances are, if you're reading this, it's after reading a ridiculously long post by me, something harshly phrased or confrontational, and/or me being stupid. I want to apologize for my above post, and end this signature with a quote of wisdom to soothe your soul.

"Ho ho..hoho hoho..santa for the wondering thismust be a joke in your series!!!!!!!!!!!!!!1"
~A scholar beyond his time

[10:10:35 PM] Airrest (Eric): YOU WERE RIGHT ALL ALONG
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01-14-2013, 08:10 PM
Post: #7
RE: Abridging/Editor Labor Cost Discussion
Since this has started a new horse beating, it deserves its own thread. Let's keep it here instead of the audition sub-forum.

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01-14-2013, 09:04 PM
Post: #8
RE: Abridging/Editor Labor Cost Discussion
Since I am editing Yaro's new show, I think I should run this thread past him. I like the numbers Truth is throwing out there

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01-14-2013, 09:54 PM (This post was last modified: 01-15-2013 09:13 PM by Airrest.)
Post: #9
RE: Abridging/Editor Labor Cost Discussion
(01-14-2013 05:27 PM)codeblackhayate Wrote:  It's just up to you to make sure it's on your tax form when you file and to keep records in case of an audit. Lot's of under the table stuff slips through the cracks, but it doesn't make the job non-legitimate.

This. A lot of people probably wouldn't report it on their taxes, but I would. Mainly because if I were making any money doing editing, it would probably be a fair amount of money.

Mike is right in saying that they don't need to pay you minimum wage and that's probably true. You can take a lump sum as a freelancer or work by the hour.

That said, if it were ME doing freelance editing, here'd be my conditions:

(Let me preface this by saying: I'm not really accepting any offers. This is just what I WOULD charge if I DID do it. Which I'm not. Nor will I. Because it's stupid. INTERNET PARODIES IS SRS BUSINESS, GUISE. But it's fun to imagine how much it would/should cost. Let's dive into that, shall we...)

Firstly, I'd need to see the script up front to determine how long the episode is, how much advanced editing is involved (photoshop work, exorbitant amounts of masking, a ton of sound effects, etc.). You'll see below what I would charge for that kind of thing. I don't care how bad the script is as long as its legible and that I have the editing prowess to pull off what they're asking for. If I determined that I could do it, my rates would be as follows:

Hourly Base Charge:
- $15/hr. I think my editing services are worth this much. I would be able to put in maximum 15 hours per week considering I have a real job that really pays the bills.
- $23/hr Overtime. This is after the upfront payment is complete if more work to the project is added by the Director. Other fees such as SFX fees still apply (except equipment fee).

Criteria:
- 1/2 the payment must be upfront. Once the video is complete, I will share it with you via screen-share. If the Director is happy with the final product, I will request the other half of the payment. Once the other half is received, I will send the file to the Director.
- The Director can work directly with me via Skype call and screen-share during work hours.
- No refunds for any work completed unless the work is lost via hard drive crash/fire/theft/etc. Also, no refunds if your video gets taken down. Not my problem.
- 1 page of script = 1 minute of video (this is a generally accepted film industry standard).
- 1 minute of video = 3 hours of normal editing time (I think this is about my speed, but I'm meticulous)
- Add 3 hours per editing intensive scene (Determined from the script. This is kind of arbitrary. I guess it depends on how long I think it'll take me per scene.)
- User must supply the footage and must provide a proof of purchase of said footage.
- Any images the user intends to use must be provided and a proof of copyright ownership/leasing/etc. must be provided.
- User must supply all music in advance. Anything extra that you want later, you're gonna have to purchase and send to me.
- User must supply all voiceover lines in advance. I will not edit if I do not have lines.
- User must supply which voiceover takes they want to use in advance. If you want me to choose the best takes, that'll be an additional charge of $5/page of the script. I will add a day on to the estimated completion time for this.
- $1 per sound effect that is not in my library (This is the average price you might pay on a website such as Soundsnap.)
- $50 equipment fee (For using my computer/power/processing capabilities/hard drive space/other resources)

SO, that said let's give a test case for the average abridged series episode.

Test Case:
- 6 page script
- 2 intensive editing scenes
- 10 custom sound effects necessary
- Director has chosen voiceover takes in advance

Test Case Fees:
- Base Charge: 6 x 3 = 18 hours. 18 hr x $15 = $270
- Editing Intensive Charge: 2 x 3 = 6 hours. 6 hr x 15 = $90
- Sound Effect Charge: 10 sfx x $1 = $10
- Equipment Fee: $50

Total: $420/episode

To be completed in 24 hours total (8 business days). This completion time is in NO WAY guaranteed. If I don't meet that timeline, however, I will NOT charge extra and will continue to work however many hours are required until the episode is complete.

Abridged Series are not serious business, but if you're going to literally hire an editor to do a good job, this is what it's gonna take. I don't think any of the fees I've laid out are unreasonable for an experienced editor.

Lesson of the story: Learn to edit your own shit or pay up.

P.S. This is EXTREMELY cheap compared to a professional editor. And I guarantee you this is not how they would spec out a cost.
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01-15-2013, 12:08 AM (This post was last modified: 01-15-2013 12:08 AM by 1KidsEntertainment.)
Post: #10
RE: Abridging/Editor Labor Cost Discussion
I've gotta be that guy, sorry dudes.

Anyone who's willing to pay several hundred dollars to make a single Abridged Series episode is an idiot. Not saying your estimates aren't fair. Just saying that the end product is not worth the price.

It's a fucking non-profit anime parody

Chances are, if you're reading this, it's after reading a ridiculously long post by me, something harshly phrased or confrontational, and/or me being stupid. I want to apologize for my above post, and end this signature with a quote of wisdom to soothe your soul.

"Ho ho..hoho hoho..santa for the wondering thismust be a joke in your series!!!!!!!!!!!!!!1"
~A scholar beyond his time

[10:10:35 PM] Airrest (Eric): YOU WERE RIGHT ALL ALONG
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01-15-2013, 12:24 AM
Post: #11
RE: Abridging/Editor Labor Cost Discussion
(01-15-2013 12:08 AM)1KidsEntertainment Wrote:  Anyone who's willing to pay several hundred dollars to make a single Abridged Series episode is an idiot. Not saying your estimates aren't fair. Just saying that the end product is not worth the price.

It's a fucking non-profit anime parody

Yep.

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"Every man's heart one day beats its final beat, his lungs breath their final breath. And if what that man did in his life, makes the blood pulse through the body of others, and makes them believe deeper in something larger than life, then his essence, his spirit, will be immortalized by the storytellers, by the loyalty, by the memory, of those who honor him and make whatever the man did live forever."
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01-15-2013, 12:47 AM
Post: #12
RE: Abridging/Editor Labor Cost Discussion
(01-15-2013 12:24 AM)Truthordeal Wrote:  
(01-15-2013 12:08 AM)1KidsEntertainment Wrote:  Anyone who's willing to pay several hundred dollars to make a single Abridged Series episode is an idiot. Not saying your estimates aren't fair. Just saying that the end product is not worth the price.

It's a fucking non-profit anime parody

Yep.

Anyone who's willing to spend several dozen hours of their already little spare time to make a single Abridged Series episode that is not theirs is an idiot. Not saying your opinion aren't fair. Just saying that the lack of pay is not worth the effort.

It's a fucking non-profit anime parody.

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01-15-2013, 01:06 AM
Post: #13
RE: Abridging/Editor Labor Cost Discussion
I'd make an animated gif of Hitler shitting on Rommel's chest if they paid me adequately. I don't consider what I'm doing "art" so it's not like I have any artistic integrity.

This reminds me of that old thread on BoD asking if abridging was art. We should beat that horse over here at some point.

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01-15-2013, 01:28 AM (This post was last modified: 01-15-2013 01:34 AM by Ezekieru.)
Post: #14
RE: Abridging/Editor Labor Cost Discussion
(01-15-2013 12:47 AM)Ezekieru Wrote:  
(01-15-2013 12:24 AM)Truthordeal Wrote:  
(01-15-2013 12:08 AM)1KidsEntertainment Wrote:  Anyone who's willing to pay several hundred dollars to make a single Abridged Series episode is an idiot. Not saying your estimates aren't fair. Just saying that the end product is not worth the price.

It's a fucking non-profit anime parody

Yep.

Anyone who's willing to spend several dozen hours of their already little spare time to make a single Abridged Series episode that is not theirs is an idiot. Not saying your opinion aren't fair. Just saying that the lack of pay is not worth the effort.

It's a fucking non-profit anime parody.

False equivalency. Abridgers make their series because they DO get something out of that... Just not money. There are plenty of reasons to abridge.

But in the scenario where one is hiring another person to edit, there is no profit other than money. What do I get out of editing your shit? Experience maybe? But if I'm worth the money you're paying me, I don't need the experience, I HAVE the experience.

Chances are, if you're reading this, it's after reading a ridiculously long post by me, something harshly phrased or confrontational, and/or me being stupid. I want to apologize for my above post, and end this signature with a quote of wisdom to soothe your soul.

"Ho ho..hoho hoho..santa for the wondering thismust be a joke in your series!!!!!!!!!!!!!!1"
~A scholar beyond his time

[10:10:35 PM] Airrest (Eric): YOU WERE RIGHT ALL ALONG
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01-15-2013, 01:35 AM
Post: #15
RE: Abridging/Editor Labor Cost Discussion
(01-15-2013 01:28 AM)1KidsEntertainment Wrote:  
(01-15-2013 12:47 AM)Ezekieru Wrote:  
(01-15-2013 12:24 AM)Truthordeal Wrote:  
(01-15-2013 12:08 AM)1KidsEntertainment Wrote:  Anyone who's willing to pay several hundred dollars to make a single Abridged Series episode is an idiot. Not saying your estimates aren't fair. Just saying that the end product is not worth the price.

It's a fucking non-profit anime parody

Yep.

Anyone who's willing to spend several dozen hours of their already little spare time to make a single Abridged Series episode that is not theirs is an idiot. Not saying your opinion aren't fair. Just saying that the lack of pay is not worth the effort.

It's a fucking non-profit anime parody.

False equivalency. Abridgers make their series because they DO get something out of that... Just not money. There are plenty of reasons to abridge.

But in the scenario where one is hiring another person to edit, there is no profit other than money. What do I get out of editing your shit? Experience maybe? But if I'm worth the money you're paying me, I don't need the experience, I HAVE the experience.

Mike...

Quote:to make a single Abridged Series episode that is not theirs

Aside from money, there is no benefit to this scenario, unless you like having busy work.

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01-15-2013, 01:38 AM
Post: #16
RE: Abridging/Editor Labor Cost Discussion
Oh, yep. You pinned it. Didn't read that part.

In that case, though, it'd only be good if it were for the experience, and/or as a favor to the writer/director.

Inna edited for me, and I don't think he's an idiot, though I'm very grateful of his generosity.

Chances are, if you're reading this, it's after reading a ridiculously long post by me, something harshly phrased or confrontational, and/or me being stupid. I want to apologize for my above post, and end this signature with a quote of wisdom to soothe your soul.

"Ho ho..hoho hoho..santa for the wondering thismust be a joke in your series!!!!!!!!!!!!!!1"
~A scholar beyond his time

[10:10:35 PM] Airrest (Eric): YOU WERE RIGHT ALL ALONG
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01-15-2013, 12:42 PM (This post was last modified: 01-15-2013 12:44 PM by Airrest.)
Post: #17
RE: Abridging/Editor Labor Cost Discussion
(01-15-2013 12:08 AM)1KidsEntertainment Wrote:  I've gotta be that guy, sorry dudes.

Anyone who's willing to pay several hundred dollars to make a single Abridged Series episode is an idiot. Not saying your estimates aren't fair. Just saying that the end product is not worth the price.

It's a fucking non-profit anime parody

Agreed a billion times over.

My post is pretty much to show why you should learn to edit for yourself.
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01-15-2013, 03:23 PM
Post: #18
RE: Abridging/Editor Labor Cost Discussion
I don't think money should even be an issue in the making of a parody series (excluding the costs for getting footage, hardware and software to actually make the series) If you are willing to pay somebody to make you a parody series, is like willing to hire someone to solve a jigsaw-puzzle for you because you think the puzzle pieces are too heavy. If you are willing to do this, then it's not a hobby for you anymore and you better just look for a different one. Go make some matchstick houses or something if, that is, you can even take the effort to open the matchbox.

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01-15-2013, 05:29 PM
Post: #19
RE: Abridging/Editor Labor Cost Discussion
(01-15-2013 03:23 PM)HarrysFiddlesticks Wrote:  I don't think money should even be an issue in the making of a parody series (excluding the costs for getting footage, hardware and software to actually make the series) If you are willing to pay somebody to make you a parody series, is like willing to hire someone to solve a jigsaw-puzzle for you because you think the puzzle pieces are too heavy. If you are willing to do this, then it's not a hobby for you anymore and you better just look for a different one. Go make some matchstick houses or something if, that is, you can even take the effort to open the matchbox.

I'm sorry, but do Directors and Writers on Movies do all the special effects and editing themselves? Its not like they are asking for someone to Write the script, do all the voices, and all the editing. Its merely doing the editing.

I'm sure there would be some form of Direction on the writer's part to the editor. Like what scenes use which footage. Also, probably a number of demo scenes rendered to make sure the editor has the right idea for scenes they aren't too sure on.

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01-15-2013, 05:49 PM (This post was last modified: 01-15-2013 05:51 PM by GreaseMnk.)
Post: #20
RE: Abridging/Editor Labor Cost Discussion
Do you have downs?

Spoiler(Show)
We're talking about internet parodies.

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