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#WTFU will affect us all - What can we do?
02-22-2016, 12:46 AM
Post: #1
#WTFU will affect us all - What can we do?
Hey guys.

So I'm sure you guys have heard about the #WTFU going about recently. How big channels are getting their content taken down despite them being within fair use.

This video sums it up pretty nicely: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zVqFAMOtwaI

This has made me seriously concerned about the safety of abridged parodies on youtube. It wasn't too long ago where TFS had a majority of their vids temporarily taken down!

If these crackdowns are happening on not legal grey area channels, imagine what is going to happen to us?

So what can we do?

I think we should prepare for the worst. Make sure your videos are backed, if you have subscribers, try and move them over to social media sites and backup youtube accounts.

Right now, the only real thing we can do right now is back everything up. But I was thinking that there has to be another way to host our parodies online.

The same way that TFS hosts their abridged parodies on their own site (which also runs ads), we need to figure out something similar.
The big thing that I am concerned about is that if we create a website purely for abridged promotion, whoever does will be legally liable for allowing it happen, the same way that the creator of MegaUpload got jailed for what people hosted on his site.

I've already sent emails and tweeted at the big three members of TFS and LittleKuriboh. But I wanted to know if anyone else had any suggestions? Has anyone already been affected by this?

What else can we do?

Thanks and I hope you guys are well,

ProfKranc
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02-22-2016, 06:57 AM
Post: #2
RE: #WTFU will affect us all - What can we do?
For an easy way to get the word out, you could join the thunderclap.
https://www.thunderclap.it/projects/3791...r-use-wtfu

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02-22-2016, 10:15 PM (This post was last modified: 02-22-2016 10:18 PM by LightningCrabz.)
Post: #3
RE: #WTFU will affect us all - What can we do?
(02-22-2016 12:46 AM)ProfKranc Wrote:  This has made me seriously concerned about the safety of abridged parodies on youtube. It wasn't too long ago where TFS had a majority of their vids temporarily taken down!

I don't think you fully understand the situation. Abridged series were never safe on youtube. This is an issue with youtube that's been boiling up for years now and is just finally bubbling over into the mainstream. Every abridger worth his/her salt has had to suffer through the counterclaim process at least a few times. It's a regular hassle that we've all begrudgingly accepted as part of the process.

The difference between us and Channel Awesome though is we don't have to deal with it as frequently as they do, and we don't depend on youtube to pay our bills like they do.

And realistically speaking, there's no good alternative to youtube. BlipTV is dead and Vimeo shuns all legally questionable content. TFS and RoosterTeeth have both switched over to embedded "JW player" on their sites, but that's only because they have fanbases massive enough to pull traffic there. For the rest of us, we're stuck with what we've got.

Either this movement will be loud enough to change youtube's system for the better, or its just gonna stay as shitty as it is now. Unless Doug Walker or TFS is going to court, I don't think anything drastic and legally binding is coming.

And as far as making some big community site to host all the videos on a separate player and face possible legal battles, it's a pipe dream at best.

I say just support the movement, help escalate the situation, and hope the squeaky wheel will get some damn grease already.

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02-23-2016, 10:02 AM
Post: #4
RE: #WTFU will affect us all - What can we do?
(02-22-2016 10:15 PM)LightningCrabz Wrote:  I don't think you fully understand the situation. Abridged series were never safe on youtube. This is an issue with youtube that's been boiling up for years now and is just finally bubbling over into the mainstream. Every abridger worth his/her salt has had to suffer through the counterclaim process at least a few times. It's a regular hassle that we've all begrudgingly accepted as part of the process.

Yes.

(02-22-2016 10:15 PM)LightningCrabz Wrote:  The difference between us and Channel Awesome though is we don't have to deal with it as frequently as they do, and we don't depend on youtube to pay our bills like they do.

We also don't have Multi-Channel Networks that are supposed to help us with legal issues like Channel Awesome does. That's really the only reason any of this is kicking up now; the MCNs aren't doing what they claimed they could do.

(02-22-2016 10:15 PM)LightningCrabz Wrote:  Either this movement will be loud enough to change youtube's system for the better, or its just gonna stay as shitty as it is now. Unless Doug Walker or TFS is going to court, I don't think anything drastic and legally binding is coming.

Yes.

(02-22-2016 10:15 PM)LightningCrabz Wrote:  And as far as making some big community site to host all the videos on a separate player and face possible legal battles, it's a pipe dream at best.

It's not even a pipe dream; it's a financial irresponsibility.

(02-22-2016 10:15 PM)LightningCrabz Wrote:  I say just support the movement, help escalate the situation, and hope the squeaky wheel will get some damn grease already.

See I disagree with this mindset, because I'm afraid what's going to happen is that once the big guys, i.e., the people who have support from MCNs or whatever other legal entities, get what they want from Youtube, the entire movement will die. Let's not be naive here. The only reason this is now getting any sort of traction, despite the fact that Youtube's been terrible about copyright since I started making shit in 2008, is because Angry Joe didn't get the preferential treatment he thought he was due because he was contracted with Polaris. Once their protected status is back, they're not going to fight for you and me, and once they're gone, we don't have an advocate anymore. We're back to everyone jacking around and pretending that Youtube isn't terrible like it was in the time before Doug Walker had to deal with copyright.

If you really want to make a difference, support a group that will support you. I'm talking about the Electronic Frontier Foundation, who has been fighting the fair use battle for years now. I don't trust Doug Walker to fight for me, I trust these guys.

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02-23-2016, 12:42 PM
Post: #5
RE: #WTFU will affect us all - What can we do?
(02-23-2016 10:02 AM)Truthordeal Wrote:  See I disagree with this mindset, because I'm afraid what's going to happen is that once the big guys, i.e., the people who have support from MCNs or whatever other legal entities, get what they want from Youtube, the entire movement will die. Let's not be naive here. The only reason this is now getting any sort of traction, despite the fact that Youtube's been terrible about copyright since I started making shit in 2008, is because Angry Joe didn't get the preferential treatment he thought he was due because he was contracted with Polaris. Once their protected status is back, they're not going to fight for you and me, and once they're gone, we don't have an advocate anymore. We're back to everyone jacking around and pretending that Youtube isn't terrible like it was in the time before Doug Walker had to deal with copyright.

If you really want to make a difference, support a group that will support you. I'm talking about the Electronic Frontier Foundation, who has been fighting the fair use battle for years now. I don't trust Doug Walker to fight for me, I trust these guys.

That's a fair point I hadn't thought of. I wonder how many big names are joining this movement that aren't aligned with an MCN. I think TotalBiscuit is still independent, and possibly those other two people featured in Doug's video (YMS and IHE).

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02-23-2016, 09:43 PM
Post: #6
RE: #WTFU will affect us all - What can we do?
(02-22-2016 10:15 PM)LightningCrabz Wrote:  
(02-22-2016 12:46 AM)ProfKranc Wrote:  This has made me seriously concerned about the safety of abridged parodies on youtube. It wasn't too long ago where TFS had a majority of their vids temporarily taken down!

I don't think you fully understand the situation. Abridged series were never safe on youtube.

The one thing is though, could, if an abridged series used royalty free music, removing all relevance to the source material apart from visuals, wouldn't it be like Bad Lip reading?
Would it be covered under parody law?
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02-23-2016, 10:45 PM
Post: #7
RE: #WTFU will affect us all - What can we do?
Well, here's the thing about that: It might. I would argue that yes it is, and in fact, I did argue as such in a video essay I did years ago on one of my old back up channels. I definitely think that abridged series would have a better claim to fair use than Let's Plays would, and those are pretty much accepted as fair use.

But "accepted" and "is" are two totally different things. Abridged series may be accepted as fair use, but they are not fully protected until a court says that they are. Whether or not the court decides that is based on a four pronged test and blah-blah-blah, I'll avoid that for now. Now you're asking specifically about music, so let me hit that. Chances are, unless you are monetizing a video, audio's not that big a deal. The main thing that would happen by getting rid of "external" audio is that your video would be slightly less likely to trigger the copyright bot.

That brings me to the main point that Lightning Crabz was trying to make: The issue with Youtube right now is not that they don't recognize that videos are fair use. The issue is that their copyright reporting program, called the Content ID System, is completely automated and often times doesn't work right.

Here's how it's supposed to work. Let's say I own Show X, and someone uses Show X in a video of theirs. I, being the owner of X, have a few options: Take it down because they are infringing on my copyright, monetize it because I own the material, or let it stay up because I don't care. But let's say I choose to take it down, because I'm Corporation X and I fucking hate people. Youtube takes down the video, gives the video maker a strike, and sends him an email telling him how he can appeal it. And appeal it he does! He sends Youtube an appeal arguing that his use of my material is protected under the fair use clause of the copyright act because it's a parody. Youtube sends me the appeal and I again have a few options. I can say "Ok, this is fair use, I overstepped my bounds, here's your video back." I can say "Well, I don't think this is fair use, but I'm okay with you using the material because I think you're doing so in good spirit humor, but I want revenue from it." Or, I can say "Fuck you, you fucking fucker. You can't use my shit for anything. Go fuck yourself." At that point, the Youtuber can make an official counter claim, in which he is directly challenging my ability to take down his video. In this instance, I have two options: Take legal action, or do nothing. If I do nothing for fourteen days, then he gets his video back and the strike is removed.

How it actually works is that I, owner of Series X, put the footage of my show into the Youtube Content ID System. The Content ID System then pings me every time something that matches my footage gets uploaded. Since the bot in control is very, very unwieldy, I get 500 pings a day, sometimes from my content, and sometimes not. But hell, I'm a very busy corporate man, so I don't have the time to go through those 500 pings a day and determine if they're fair use, or even mine. So I just tell Youtube to take them all down and we'll sort it out later. The video maker who thinks what he does is fair use then appeals, and after about 300 appeals get into my backlog, I just decide to hell with it and tell Youtube that they're all wrong and to take the videos down for good. If a video maker then counter claims me, I'll probably do nothing, because taking legal action against a nobody is not worth my time. Supposedly if I do that for fourteen days, Youtube gives the guy his video back, but that often doesn't happen.

And that's a good case scenario. People troll the Content ID System all the time, claiming footage that they have no rights to. People get vindictive, and use the Content ID System to wrongfully have someone's videos pulled down. And the sad part is, Youtube let's them, and doesn't do anything about it, because the entire process is automated and bots can't detect legal nuance. Then if you get three strikes, it becomes much, much harder to even counter claim.

So that's the issue. Take the current hullabaloo with TeamFourStar. They're probably not getting music claims. They're not getting video claims because Funimation likes them. Chances are, they are getting bullshit claims by trolls or people looking to exploit the system. And Youtube is letting it happen. Again. And again. And again.

That's what #WTFU is fighting against. The actual legality of anything we do isn't really at issue here. It's just that Youtube's copyright system is janked as fuck and we're tired of dealing with it. Youtube needs to do better.

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02-24-2016, 04:15 AM
Post: #8
RE: #WTFU will affect us all - What can we do?
(02-23-2016 10:45 PM)Truthordeal Wrote:  Well, here's the thing about that: It might. I would argue that yes it is, and in fact, I did argue as such in a video essay I did years ago on one of my old back up channels. I definitely think that abridged series would have a better claim to fair use than Let's Plays would, and those are pretty much accepted as fair use.

But "accepted" and "is" are two totally different things. Abridged series may be accepted as fair use, but they are not fully protected until a court says that they are. Whether or not the court decides that is based on a four pronged test and blah-blah-blah, I'll avoid that for now. Now you're asking specifically about music, so let me hit that. Chances are, unless you are monetizing a video, audio's not that big a deal. The main thing that would happen by getting rid of "external" audio is that your video would be slightly less likely to trigger the copyright bot.

That brings me to the main point that Lightning Crabz was trying to make: The issue with Youtube right now is not that they don't recognize that videos are fair use. The issue is that their copyright reporting program, called the Content ID System, is completely automated and often times doesn't work right.

Here's how it's supposed to work. Let's say I own Show X, and someone uses Show X in a video of theirs. I, being the owner of X, have a few options: Take it down because they are infringing on my copyright, monetize it because I own the material, or let it stay up because I don't care. But let's say I choose to take it down, because I'm Corporation X and I fucking hate people. Youtube takes down the video, gives the video maker a strike, and sends him an email telling him how he can appeal it. And appeal it he does! He sends Youtube an appeal arguing that his use of my material is protected under the fair use clause of the copyright act because it's a parody. Youtube sends me the appeal and I again have a few options. I can say "Ok, this is fair use, I overstepped my bounds, here's your video back." I can say "Well, I don't think this is fair use, but I'm okay with you using the material because I think you're doing so in good spirit humor, but I want revenue from it." Or, I can say "Fuck you, you fucking fucker. You can't use my shit for anything. Go fuck yourself." At that point, the Youtuber can make an official counter claim, in which he is directly challenging my ability to take down his video. In this instance, I have two options: Take legal action, or do nothing. If I do nothing for fourteen days, then he gets his video back and the strike is removed.

How it actually works is that I, owner of Series X, put the footage of my show into the Youtube Content ID System. The Content ID System then pings me every time something that matches my footage gets uploaded. Since the bot in control is very, very unwieldy, I get 500 pings a day, sometimes from my content, and sometimes not. But hell, I'm a very busy corporate man, so I don't have the time to go through those 500 pings a day and determine if they're fair use, or even mine. So I just tell Youtube to take them all down and we'll sort it out later. The video maker who thinks what he does is fair use then appeals, and after about 300 appeals get into my backlog, I just decide to hell with it and tell Youtube that they're all wrong and to take the videos down for good. If a video maker then counter claims me, I'll probably do nothing, because taking legal action against a nobody is not worth my time. Supposedly if I do that for fourteen days, Youtube gives the guy his video back, but that often doesn't happen.

And that's a good case scenario. People troll the Content ID System all the time, claiming footage that they have no rights to. People get vindictive, and use the Content ID System to wrongfully have someone's videos pulled down. And the sad part is, Youtube let's them, and doesn't do anything about it, because the entire process is automated and bots can't detect legal nuance. Then if you get three strikes, it becomes much, much harder to even counter claim.

So that's the issue. Take the current hullabaloo with TeamFourStar. They're probably not getting music claims. They're not getting video claims because Funimation likes them. Chances are, they are getting bullshit claims by trolls or people looking to exploit the system. And Youtube is letting it happen. Again. And again. And again.

That's what #WTFU is fighting against. The actual legality of anything we do isn't really at issue here. It's just that Youtube's copyright system is janked as fuck and we're tired of dealing with it. Youtube needs to do better.

Yes and no. First of all, your channel as a YouTuber does not get a strike until that last phase, a DMCA claim (which, as Truth stated, can be challenged, and would require legal action from the claimant in order to keep the video down). The good news is, the phases before that, which are done through the Content ID system, do not give any copyright strikes. So your channel will not go down from automatic flaggings anymore, like they used to (see: the LittleKuriboh channel). The down side is that at maximum, it can take 3 months and 3 actions on the part of the YouTuber before they get their video back.

So, to lay it out a little easier, here's how most copyright disputes on YouTube go down:
  • Content ID system automatically detects footage that is a certain percentage similar to source footage provided by the claimant. Yes, the system now knows to look at flipped, cropped, resized, and color corrected footage. The more you do, though, the lower the percentage of alikeness to the original will be, and the less likely it'll be to get flagged. So technically, if you wanted to avoid this ever happening, you could probably desaturate the footage, crop it, flip it, and put a border around it, and you'd probably be okay. Your footage would look like garbage though.
  • The Content ID claim received can either monetize the video, take it down (in select or all countries), or do nothing. Note: I believe that even if they say that YouTube should not take any action, this still prevents you from monetizing the video yourself, since YouTube says they have proof you don't own it and it's therefore illegal.
  • The YouTuber can dispute this Content ID claim. The claimant (alleged copyright owner) has 30 days to respond to this. They rarely ever respond before the deadline, because, as Truth said, the businesses rarely feel like employing people or copyright protection firms to monitor these. Or, worse, they don't give a shit and want to wait out the timer as long as they can to piss off or disadvantage the YouTuber, then deny the dispute at the very end of the 30 days.
  • If the dispute is not responded to at the end of the 30 days, it is removed and the video goes back up as originally done. This often happens.
  • If the dispute is responded to before the 30 day mark with the claimant saying "my bad", it is removed and the video goes back up as it was originally.
  • If the dispute is responded to before the 30 day mark with the claimant saying "no, it's mine, fuck you", the video goes back to whatever status it had after the Content ID claim was made, but before the dispute. Remember, that could be the claimant monetizing your videos, taking it down, or doing nothing but saying "this is mine" (which I believe disables monetization on it altogether).
  • If you're unlucky enough to have your dispute denied, you can appeal that decision. The risk of doing this is that if they deny the appeal, your Content ID claim gets upgraded to a DMCA Copyright Strike. Oh, and btw, another 30 day maximum waiting period. So you might have your video down for two whole months before the DMCA claim itself even comes through.
  • So, they can either change their mind and accept your appeal, meaning you get your video back as you wanted, monetization how you wanted, or, the more likely scenario...
  • They respond by denying your appeal. You then have 7 days to withdraw your appeal without receiving a strike. This is a fairly new development, it didn't used to be like this. You used to just get the strike. Now you have 7 days to protect yourself from it, if you choose. So at least there's that.
  • But if you do withdraw your appeal, that's it. You cannot fight it anymore. The option to fight it is permanently gone at this point. Your video will revert to the status the copyright owner told the Content ID system to give it.
  • If you decide to wait out the 7 days, your video gets a DMCA claim, which brings it down entirely in all countries and issues your channel with a copyright strike. When your channel has a strike, you cannot fight any other Content ID claims, you cannot upload videos longer than 15 minutes, you cannot use custom thumbnails, and in some cases you might have problems with monetization. Also, your multi-channel network, if you have one, gets a strike or penalty of some sort. Not exactly sure how that part works.
  • You can then file a DMCA counter-notification. At this point, I'm fairly certain that the claimant cannot deny your claim without legal action. However, even getting your video back at this point can take 10 business days (2+ actual weeks).

That's the system, in all its complexity, unfairness, and guilty-until-proven-innocent mentality. Oh, and if that wasn't enough, Content ID claims can be made manually as well! I found that one out the hard way in the last week or two. And full-on DMCA claims can also be made manually, bypassing the Content ID entirely and skipping straight to the copyright strikes. Oh, and countering a DMCA claim requires you to give up your personal information (name, address, and I think maybe phone number?), so if someone trolls you with a DMCA claim, they get your information and no penalty as a prize, even if you fight it successfully.

YouTube has a monopoly on this market. They can get away with whatever they want. Even if there are/were other websites you could upload to, the fact that YouTube has the vast majority of the market share means that no one who is looking for new viewers will go elsewhere. The possible customers/viewers are on YouTube. Even TFS stays on YouTube, despite having a website. The reason is obvious: That's where you get new viewers, and hell, that's where most of your current fanbase remains anyways. I doubt their site gets even 50% of their audience to go to it.

So basically we're fucked until the system is changed. With YouTubers and multi-channel networks becoming bigger, worth more money, and more popular, it wouldn't surprise me if there's an actual court case that requires YouTube to change their system within the next 5-10 years, just like how the lawsuit YouTube was involved with almost 10 years ago created the system we have now. We'll see how that court case goes, when it happens. Hopefully no abridgers themselves are directly involved. We just don't have the money.

Chances are, if you're reading this, it's after reading a ridiculously long post by me, something harshly phrased or confrontational, and/or me being stupid. I want to apologize for my above post, and end this signature with a quote of wisdom to soothe your soul.

"Ho ho..hoho hoho..santa for the wondering thismust be a joke in your series!!!!!!!!!!!!!!1"
~A scholar beyond his time

[10:10:35 PM] Airrest (Eric): YOU WERE RIGHT ALL ALONG
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02-24-2016, 10:22 AM
Post: #9
RE: #WTFU will affect us all - What can we do?
Question then: How did TFS' channel get taken down? If automatic flaggings don't give strikes anymore, then even if a few videos got pulled their channel should have stayed in tact. Is this a matter of them waiting out the seven days and getting a strike, or a manual takedown?

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02-24-2016, 11:10 AM
Post: #10
RE: #WTFU will affect us all - What can we do?
Walls of text. By best friend.

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02-24-2016, 04:54 PM (This post was last modified: 02-24-2016 04:54 PM by 1KidsEntertainment.)
Post: #11
RE: #WTFU will affect us all - What can we do?
(02-24-2016 10:22 AM)Truthordeal Wrote:  Question then: How did TFS' channel get taken down? If automatic flaggings don't give strikes anymore, then even if a few videos got pulled their channel should have stayed in tact. Is this a matter of them waiting out the seven days and getting a strike, or a manual takedown?

I would have to ask them. It's certainly plausible a couple things could have happened.
  • Toei or some other copyright holders manually issued DMCA claims, bypassing Content ID entirely. I've done this myself with fake channels that have reuploaded my content. You can only list 10 videos per claim, so if you claim 21+ videos, that's 3 claims, which would be 3 strikes.
  • A troll issued DMCA claims despite not being the copyright owner.
  • TFS might have been fighting Content ID strikes for multiple videos and not been paying attention properly or not given the 7 day waiting period between appeal and DMCA strike (maybe the reason our channel got one was because it was the result of a manual Content ID claim. Yes, those exist, apparently.)

I haven't spoken to Kaiser, Taka, or Lani. I'm assuming everyone has been pestering them since yesterday about this whole ordeal, so I didn't want to add to that.

Chances are, if you're reading this, it's after reading a ridiculously long post by me, something harshly phrased or confrontational, and/or me being stupid. I want to apologize for my above post, and end this signature with a quote of wisdom to soothe your soul.

"Ho ho..hoho hoho..santa for the wondering thismust be a joke in your series!!!!!!!!!!!!!!1"
~A scholar beyond his time

[10:10:35 PM] Airrest (Eric): YOU WERE RIGHT ALL ALONG
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04-02-2016, 06:59 PM
Post: #12
RE: #WTFU will affect us all - What can we do?
good day everyone.

I'm not a big content creator on YT, however, the constant abuse of the system bugs me, just as it does most people.

Over the last 6 months or so, i have been progressively downloading and archiving abridged series. I have started a thread in the "Other projects" header - http://www.abridgedforums.com/showthread.php?tid=2726

Links to the archives can be found in my signature, as well as listing on the wiki page.

Unfortunately there are episodes and series i haven't been able to locate, but any help is appreciated.

Hopefully this can be of some assistance

https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCz-0et8...Xx1CBrfSgg
https://www.facebook.com/Abridged-Anime-...76/?ref=hl
https://mega.nz/#F!eQkz0STb!72iNDm3nfaTya-UWSj7RHg
https://mega.nz/#F!3U900DTA!lMS040jMkRbIcARJb7DyUA
https://mega.nz/#F!i5l0gIyS!YT-VeJFLoieuqsSUKb-Edg
https://mega.nz/#F!60BiCBjT!mUveDaCZ7Y5FpYdvWxI0iQ
https://mega.nz/#F!7sUnAAIC!3LEvKPywUbSeTjjOpzMZ0w
http://abridgedseries.wikia.com/wiki/Abridged_Archive
http://abridgedseries.wikia.com/wiki/Lis...ed_Archive
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