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Religion
09-07-2012, 09:49 AM (This post was last modified: 09-07-2012 09:55 AM by Discount_Flunky.)
Post: #61
RE: Religion
I'm a Mormon. And that's all I'm going to say for now. (because I think I know what's coming)

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09-07-2012, 02:16 PM
Post: #62
RE: Religion
Well, if you want to contribute, you could tell us specifically what you believe and more importantly, why.

Chances are, if you're reading this, it's after reading a ridiculously long post by me, something harshly phrased or confrontational, and/or me being stupid. I want to apologize for my above post, and end this signature with a quote of wisdom to soothe your soul.

"Ho ho..hoho hoho..santa for the wondering thismust be a joke in your series!!!!!!!!!!!!!!1"
~A scholar beyond his time

[10:10:35 PM] Airrest (Eric): YOU WERE RIGHT ALL ALONG
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09-07-2012, 07:45 PM (This post was last modified: 09-07-2012 08:00 PM by Discount_Flunky.)
Post: #63
RE: Religion
(09-07-2012 02:16 PM)1KidsEntertainment Wrote:  Well, if you want to contribute, you could tell us specifically what you believe and more importantly, why.

Sorry about that last post I actually wrote a wall text and it didn't go through. I'm actually kind of pissed. I'll write it again, but maybe if it would be better if you can tell me what you know about (or think you know about) Mormons. The entire post was just me giving the basics of Mormonism, because I don't know what you know, and I really didn't have space to fit why I belive any of it or my own personal beliefs.

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09-11-2012, 10:37 AM (This post was last modified: 09-11-2012 10:40 AM by 1KidsEntertainment.)
Post: #64
RE: Religion
(09-07-2012 07:45 PM)Discount_Flunky Wrote:  
(09-07-2012 02:16 PM)1KidsEntertainment Wrote:  Well, if you want to contribute, you could tell us specifically what you believe and more importantly, why.

Sorry about that last post I actually wrote a wall text and it didn't go through. I'm actually kind of pissed. I'll write it again, but maybe if it would be better if you can tell me what you know about (or think you know about) Mormons. The entire post was just me giving the basics of Mormonism, because I don't know what you know, and I really didn't have space to fit why I belive any of it or my own personal beliefs.

Err, this isn't about what I know or think. If you identify with Mormonism, then you must have some sort of claim you are making about a god. Probably many of them, actually. I'm curious what specifically you believe (since almost all religious people cherry-pick bits of their religion they like, merely saying "Mormon" doesn't give me a clear set of beliefs that you hold), and why you've chosen to believe them. What evidence you have to back up those claims. Why are you correct, and why are people of different faiths making different claims incorrect?

There's no rush. Write it in a Word document over the course of a week if you have to.

Chances are, if you're reading this, it's after reading a ridiculously long post by me, something harshly phrased or confrontational, and/or me being stupid. I want to apologize for my above post, and end this signature with a quote of wisdom to soothe your soul.

"Ho ho..hoho hoho..santa for the wondering thismust be a joke in your series!!!!!!!!!!!!!!1"
~A scholar beyond his time

[10:10:35 PM] Airrest (Eric): YOU WERE RIGHT ALL ALONG
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09-11-2012, 10:56 PM
Post: #65
RE: Religion
I would put money on the fact that the only reason Discount_Flunky is a mormon is because he was born a Mormon. He stays a Mormon for personal reasons, but the ball started rolling by a good hard shove from his family. I know this because that's how all religions are. If Discount_Flunky were born as, say, a Muslim, today he would be a Muslim and not a Mormon.
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09-12-2012, 10:45 AM
Post: #66
RE: Religion
This is not true all of the time, but it oftentimes is. Particularly with the wackier religions, like Scientology or Mormonism, it's hard to accept it if you haven't been indoctrinated into it.

Chances are, if you're reading this, it's after reading a ridiculously long post by me, something harshly phrased or confrontational, and/or me being stupid. I want to apologize for my above post, and end this signature with a quote of wisdom to soothe your soul.

"Ho ho..hoho hoho..santa for the wondering thismust be a joke in your series!!!!!!!!!!!!!!1"
~A scholar beyond his time

[10:10:35 PM] Airrest (Eric): YOU WERE RIGHT ALL ALONG
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09-14-2012, 09:11 PM
Post: #67
RE: Religion
(09-11-2012 10:56 PM)Innagadadavida Wrote:  I would put money on the fact that the only reason Discount_Flunky is a mormon is because he was born a Mormon. He stays a Mormon for personal reasons, but the ball started rolling by a good hard shove from his family. I know this because that's how all religions are. If Discount_Flunky were born as, say, a Muslim, today he would be a Muslim and not a Mormon.

I was born a Mormon, but I've acquired my own personal belief of the religion. I will go into way you are mostly wrong about what you said however when I address 1kids.

(09-12-2012 10:45 AM)1KidsEntertainment Wrote:  This is not true all of the time, but it oftentimes is. Particularly with the wackier religions, like Scientology or Mormonism, it's hard to accept it if you haven't been indoctrinated into it.

I honestly consider this offensive but your ignorant on the matter so I'll let it slid. Mormonism is the fastest growing christain religion in the US, and one of the fastest in the world. There are 4 million Mormons in the US alone, that's roughly 1% of the population. World wide there are about 14 million Mormons with the highest concentration in South and Central American and Micronesia. There are some Islands in the Pacific that are entirely Mormon. The vast majority of Mormons these days are converts.

What does this mean? It means that it is not "hard to accept it if you haven't been indoctrinated into it." Apparently it's quite easy to expect it without indoctrination. To make a long story sort Mormonism is not a cult as many people believe. If it is, then quite frankly every church is a radical brainwashing cult.

I'm going to make a full post on all my beliefs and why I believe them and such later. I just got to my home with the Internets, and I'm just about to start a LAN party (I'm such a nerd) so I don't have time right now.

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09-15-2012, 12:16 AM (This post was last modified: 09-15-2012 12:17 AM by 1KidsEntertainment.)
Post: #68
RE: Religion
If you find my description of Mormonism "offensive", then by all means please show me how it's not wacky and is realistically possible/plausible/probable.

But not for nothing, every single thing I've seen on Mormonism makes it seem to me like a bigger pile of horse shit than normal Christianity. At least most non-Mormon Christians can say that their holy texts are impossible to verify the truthfulness of because they're almost 2000 years old. Mormonism is founded on a book written near the 1800s with the writing style of roughly the 1600s because the founder was steeped in versions of the Bible that were translated in the 1600s. He felt that writing it in that way would convince more people of its genuineness.

It claims the Garden of Eden was in Missouri.

It claims that magic underwear is a thing.

It claims Jesus visited North America (or was it South America?).

This is on top of all of the crazy-ass Christian claims of talking snakes, virgin births, worldwide floods, geocentrism, 7-day creation, population through incest, people living hundreds of years, existence of unicorns, transubstantiation, an extremely flawed God, etc.

Please, by all means, if I'm wrong, show it to me. But don't be offended when you identify with a religion that is batshit crazy even by religious standards.

Also, great job pointing out that Mormonism is the fastest growing Christian denomination, and how many of them there are. Now let's compare to the population of atheists/nonbelievers or Muslims, and you'll find that they're pretty outmatched. If numbers of people who agreed with each other meant truth, there wouldn't be multiple religions.

Chances are, if you're reading this, it's after reading a ridiculously long post by me, something harshly phrased or confrontational, and/or me being stupid. I want to apologize for my above post, and end this signature with a quote of wisdom to soothe your soul.

"Ho ho..hoho hoho..santa for the wondering thismust be a joke in your series!!!!!!!!!!!!!!1"
~A scholar beyond his time

[10:10:35 PM] Airrest (Eric): YOU WERE RIGHT ALL ALONG
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09-15-2012, 12:56 AM (This post was last modified: 09-15-2012 12:56 AM by Discount_Flunky.)
Post: #69
RE: Religion
(09-15-2012 12:16 AM)1KidsEntertainment Wrote:  Snip


I wasn't offended by you thinking Mormonism is crazy. I recognize that Mormonism is unorthodox. What offended me is that you seemed to suggest that Mormonism is some tiny little religion that no one could possible believe unless they were brainwashed since the day they were born. The data suggests the opposite. There are droves of young educated people joining, as well as former pastors, and people form all social classes.

Cults CANNOT operate that way and survive. Cults require extreme isolation and small hand picked congregations. It's the only way to stop people form asking questions, and thinking for themselves. The LDS church is pretty much the exact opposite of that.

I'm not quite sure you understood the point I was trying to make with my last post. I wasn't comparing it to how numerous atheism is, or any other religion for that matter. I was trying to prove that Mormonism does not require you be born into it in order to believe it by proving that there are many converts.

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09-15-2012, 12:58 AM
Post: #70
RE: Religion
Discount_Flunky, who told you all that information? A Mormon? Because the perspective outside of Mormonism is that its a niche almost cult-like spin-off of Christianity. And when I was a Lutheran we were taught that Mormons are blasphemous because they altered,by way of including extra companion books to the Bible.
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09-15-2012, 01:05 AM (This post was last modified: 09-15-2012 03:03 AM by Discount_Flunky.)
Post: #71
RE: Religion
(09-15-2012 12:58 AM)Innagadadavida Wrote:  Discount_Flunky, who told you all that information? A Mormon?

Are you implying that information is false? Most of the US facts are form government census and independent studies. It's all pretty much public information.

Also did you ever think that maybe it's other Christian religions that are lying about Mormonism and not the other way around? They have a pretty strong motive to make Mormonism look bad. Like I said it's the fastest growing christian religion, besides the possibility of their members becoming atheist we're pretty much their biggest competition.

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09-15-2012, 05:32 AM
Post: #72
RE: Religion
As an atheist (for all intents and purposes), 1Kids, I'm not quite sure I can get behind your idea that one needs evidence to believe in a god.

I mean, I'm certainly not saying a god exists or that you wouldn't need evidence to present the existence of a god as a matter of fact. I'm just pointing out that some people view God as a theoretical possibility and choose to err on the side of believing in him because they find the idea more comforting than that of a world with no god at all.

Since I used to be Christian myself, I can totally understand how that feels. I'm still not entirely comfortable with the thought of God not existing, to be honest. It kind of has a weird way of making you feel like the world is dangerous and chaotic.

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09-15-2012, 09:34 AM (This post was last modified: 09-15-2012 09:34 AM by Truthordeal.)
Post: #73
RE: Religion
(09-15-2012 12:16 AM)1KidsEntertainment Wrote:  This is on top of all of the crazy-ass Christian claims of talking snakes, virgin births, worldwide floods, geocentrism, 7-day creation, population through incest, people living hundreds of years, existence of unicorns, transubstantiation, an extremely flawed God, etc.

Fuck you 1Kids, unicorns are real.

Quote:I mean, I'm certainly not saying a god exists or that you wouldn't need evidence to present the existence of a god as a matter of fact. I'm just pointing out that some people view God as a theoretical possibility and choose to err on the side of believing in him because they find the idea more comforting than that of a world with no god at all.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pascal%27s_Wager#Criticism

Quote:Also did you ever think that maybe it's other Christian religions that are lying about Mormonism and not the other way around? They have a pretty strong motive to make Mormonism look bad. Like I said it's the fastest growing christian religion, besides the possibility of their members becoming atheist we're pretty much their biggest competition.

Mormonism's made itself look bad since it's inception. I can't recall any other religious faith nearly declaring war on the United States Army because they weren't allowed to have multiple wives. Mormon adherents have been decidedly radical for almost 200 years now; you can hardly blame that on some evangelical Christian propaganda machine.

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09-15-2012, 11:07 AM
Post: #74
RE: Religion
(09-15-2012 09:34 AM)Truthordeal Wrote:  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pascal%27s_Wager#Criticism

Well, that's not exactly what I was trying to imply. Pascal's Wager is stupid, yeah, but I mostly see it used in the context of chastising atheists for not believing in God.

I was mostly trying to say that belief doesn't necessarily have to be logical. An individual might indeed feel more at peace believing there's something bigger than us out there.

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09-15-2012, 03:07 PM (This post was last modified: 09-15-2012 03:18 PM by Innagadadavida.)
Post: #75
RE: Religion
Discount_Flunky, I would like to alert you that I am not trying to rag on you. Based on your reactions, it seems to me you are taking some of the things I am saying personally. By its very nature, discussions on Religion often end up with someone getting their feelings hurt. What I am doing is criticizing a religion. But that religion is part of your identity. So in a way, I am attacking you. I am aware of this, and I continue this conversation because I am genuinely interested in it. I don't have any personal stakes in it. I realize though that this is unfair to you. So I've spoiled my response and you can choose to ignore it. I would not blame you for that. Because I do like you.

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(09-15-2012 01:05 AM)Discount_Flunky Wrote:  Are you implying that information is false? Most of the US facts are form government census and independent studies. It's all pretty much public information.


I believe you. As in, I believe you think this is true. But it is simply not. If your claim it is part of the US Government census, then it is your responsibility to prove that. Because I believe that is a false statement. However, I am not going to go research every crackpot lie that is shouted at me in a debate by someone with their fingers in their ears. But I am willing to accept this as true if you are able to provide reputable evidence for this claim. If you can not, then I will stick with my current assumption: you are preaching a non-truth.

Because you are essentially saying "I am telling the truth because there is evidence". How would you respond to "I believe there is no God because there is evidence"? You would immediately reject that idea because you see no evidence. That is exactly what you are doing to me. So I will not accept your claim.

(09-15-2012 01:05 AM)Discount_Flunky Wrote:  Also did you ever think that maybe it's other Christian religions that are lying about Mormonism and not the other way around? They have a pretty strong motive to make Mormonism look bad. Like I said it's the fastest growing christian religion, besides the possibility of their members becoming atheist we're pretty much their biggest competition.

Did you ever think that I don't actually abide by that view because I am no longer a Christian? It doesn't matter to me if Lutheran teachings on Mormonism is part of some big conspiracy to keep us away from the real truth. Because I no longer follow Lutheran teachings. My point in bringing that up is that my perspective on the issue is such that I wrote, and I have also experienced the perspective as a Christian; which is one less step removed from your situation as to where I'm at now. It was relevant to the conversation.

I impose no obligation to continue this conversation. But I am posting this publicly because you publicly invited it when you said "because I think I know what's coming".
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09-15-2012, 04:42 PM (This post was last modified: 09-15-2012 04:47 PM by Discount_Flunky.)
Post: #76
RE: Religion
(09-15-2012 03:07 PM)Innagadadavida Wrote:  I believe you. As in, I believe you think this is true. But it is simply not. If your claim it is part of the US Government census, then it is your responsibility to prove that. Because I believe that is a false statement. However, I am not going to go research every crackpot lie that is shouted at me in a debate by someone with their fingers in their ears. But I am willing to accept this as true if you are able to provide reputable evidence for this claim. If you can not, then I will stick with my current assumption: you are preaching a non-truth.

First off why is it so hard to believe there are around 4 million Mormons in America? It's not that outlandish of a figure. I think your bias is causing you to reject that there are really more Mormons then you think there are.

This is the best I can do right now. NBC and CNN have all used these numbers. They have fact checkers that could easily find problems with the numbers if they exist, so I'm thinking there genuine.

Also I'd like to point out that the 14 million number released by church only accounts for how many people have joined. It doesn't take into consideration the number of people who joined and don't usually go to church. Therefore the actual amount of devout Mormons is much less then the figures suggest.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Church_...ip_history

http://www.reuters.com/article/2012/05/0...NK20120501

I feel we are getting away from what this debate is about here. I'm going to draft my post on my full beliefs and we'll start the debate over form there.

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09-15-2012, 06:43 PM (This post was last modified: 09-15-2012 07:02 PM by 1KidsEntertainment.)
Post: #77
RE: Religion
(09-15-2012 11:07 AM)Snarkeet Wrote:  I was mostly trying to say that belief doesn't necessarily have to be logical. An individual might indeed feel more at peace believing there's something bigger than us out there.

Sure, but what truth value does that have?

It might make me feel good if I believe that Sonic the Hedgehog is real and my friend, but it doesn't make a difference when it comes to reality: Is he real or not?

If you're coming into a thread about religion, and the tone clearly is not "Let's all state our beliefs and respectfully decline to discuss them!", then don't state your beliefs if you have no good reasons why you believe them. I might even take it a step further and say that you shouldn't hold the belief if you have no good reason to believe it.

Then, add again the harm that even holding a false belief can cause; the illusion of "everyone believes in a god, therefore it must exist", the harm other people commit in the name of their god(s), violent & nonviolent, not to mention the fact that people sometimes dedicate their lives (or large portions of their lives) to things based on non-truths. What a waste of human life, to spend a high percentage of your life thinking/praying about lies that you choose to accept.

The only exceptions I usually make to the rule is when there is a psychological need for it. I've known several people who can't emotionally accept the possibility of a universe without a personal god looking out for them and an afterlife to comfort the fear of death (usually the thought of dropping their beliefs caused an uncontrollable panic/anxiety attack). I think it's acceptable still for these people to hold their beliefs, but still wrong to spread them or harm others in the name of them. The psychological need for it is only there because of indoctrination in those cases anyways. If the religion/religious ideas were not spread, that psychological need would pretty much die out.

Also, on Pascal's wager:
[Image: aVSVQ.png]

Chances are, if you're reading this, it's after reading a ridiculously long post by me, something harshly phrased or confrontational, and/or me being stupid. I want to apologize for my above post, and end this signature with a quote of wisdom to soothe your soul.

"Ho ho..hoho hoho..santa for the wondering thismust be a joke in your series!!!!!!!!!!!!!!1"
~A scholar beyond his time

[10:10:35 PM] Airrest (Eric): YOU WERE RIGHT ALL ALONG
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09-15-2012, 06:49 PM
Post: #78
RE: Religion
(09-15-2012 06:43 PM)1KidsEntertainment Wrote:  The only exceptions I usually make to the rule is when there is a psychological need for it. I've known several people who can't emotionally accept the possibility of a universe without a personal god looking out for them and an afterlife to comfort the fear of death (usually the thought of dropping their beliefs caused an uncontrollable panic/anxiety attack). I think it's acceptable still for these people to hold their beliefs, but still wrong to spread them or harm others in the name of them. The psychological need for it is only there because of indoctrination in those cases anyways. If the religion/religious ideas were not spread, that psychological need would pretty much die out.

True. Granted, I was pretty much operating under the assumption that most fervently religious people fall into this category. I imagine that for a lot of people, having their entire worldview collapse would make it very difficult to cope.

That said I agree about the spreading of religion and how it damages people. When you teach a child to practice a religion you're essentially forcing them to believe in something they might not have believed if you hadn't influenced them. I'm of the opinion that it's wrong to indoctrinate people.

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09-16-2012, 08:58 PM (This post was last modified: 09-16-2012 09:03 PM by Innagadadavida.)
Post: #79
RE: Religion
(09-15-2012 06:43 PM)1KidsEntertainment Wrote:  I've known several people who can't emotionally accept the possibility of a universe without a personal god looking out for them and an afterlife to comfort the fear of death (usually the thought of dropping their beliefs caused an uncontrollable panic/anxiety attack). I think it's acceptable still for these people to hold their beliefs, but still wrong to spread them or harm others in the name of them. The psychological need for it is only there because of indoctrination in those cases anyways. If the religion/religious ideas were not spread, that psychological need would pretty much die out.

I think every person is capable of handling the truth. It's just much easier to deal with death as a child if you believe in life after death. If you never give a child that explanation in the first place, they will never really know anything else. Its the same psychology of religion, just in reverse. And once people grow out of adolescence, and deal with the reality of death with the proper priming and social conditioning (IE: Work together, protect the planet, don't get in anyone else's way, and don't be a cunt) then they can truly move on and enjoy life for what it is. All it takes is the right amount of education.

Death is hard. Its why religion exists in the first place. But once I left my superstitions behind and really REALLY dealt with my mortality. I've come out a stronger person and my priorities changed. But I'm really really working on killing my ego. I would like to go the rest of my life with limited interference from it. The closer I get to getting rid of that part of my mind, the easier it is to handle the idea. Still not easy, just easier.

By the way, "life after death" is such an absurd concept to me now. I can't really wrap my head around the fact that people live their entire lives believing this. Its like saying "after you're done eating this piece of pie, you can have another piece of pie that lasts FOREVER!" Who the hell WOULDN'T want that? But who would believe it?
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09-16-2012, 09:07 PM
Post: #80
RE: Religion
(09-16-2012 08:58 PM)Innagadadavida Wrote:  Its like saying "after you're done eating this piece of pie, you can have another piece of pie that lasts FOREVER!" Who the hell WOULDN'T want that? But who would believe it?

I would do neither of those things, personally.

A longer life? Sure. Definitely. An infinite life? That'd be torture.

Also, regarding your point about how you (and others) can/do come to terms with mortality, I think you're ignorant (and not in an insulting way) of some people's emotional/mental states. It's the human condition. We find it hard to TRULY put ourselves in the minds of other people.

Again, I know several people who I've witnessed directly the inability to comprehend a limited lifespan or lack of deity without causing a panic attack. This is the exception to the rule, mind you, as I otherwise agree with you that uncomfortability should not be the reason people choose to stick with their religion. But yes, there are people with anxiety problems (or other mental problems) who have had religion drilled into them so significantly that even if they distance themselves from the organizations and doctrines, they cannot think of reality without the fundamental ideas (god/heaven) without causing themselves severe emotional pain.

That's why I make an exception for these kinds of people. It's still wrong for them directly or indirectly harm others (spreading religion, voting homophobic, etc.), but as long as they're minimizing their harm to others, it is okay for them to hold irrational beliefs for their own health.

Chances are, if you're reading this, it's after reading a ridiculously long post by me, something harshly phrased or confrontational, and/or me being stupid. I want to apologize for my above post, and end this signature with a quote of wisdom to soothe your soul.

"Ho ho..hoho hoho..santa for the wondering thismust be a joke in your series!!!!!!!!!!!!!!1"
~A scholar beyond his time

[10:10:35 PM] Airrest (Eric): YOU WERE RIGHT ALL ALONG
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